Real Time? Turn Based? Waves Based?!

[ybom]

I was writing a flowchart for a new idea when I came across an issue that I need everyone's help with. I don't know if this has been addressed at all, anywhere.

Everyone knows what a turn based game is, and everyone knows what a real time game is. What I want to know is if a game has waves that you send, does this make it real time, or turn based? Could I use the designation "waves based" instead?

However, if I absolutely had to choose either RT or TB which would this fall under though? Such as if I wanted to submit game data to gamefaqs - they only let you choose rt or tb on several game types. I'm personally leaning towards RT. My thinking is that if a game has any real time elements in it, it should be considered real time.

Any other thoughts on this?

[Patashu]

Are time intervals quantized?
Yes: It is a turn-based game.
No: It is a real-time game.

Have you ever seen a tower defense game where all the units and towers take turns to do a quantized amount of action? If you have, it's turn based. Otherwise it's real time.

[ybom]

Do you mean that units and towers do limited action? I think that's a poor example of the difference, simply because I could say that any AI has its limits as to what it could do even in a considered to be RT environment. This means that that AI, due to technical limitations, is quantized. Even the human brain could be considered quantized on some level.

But wait, could a certain level of limitation, or quantization, focus on the inherent difference? I don't think so. The problem with doing that is there are several features in all games that could cause a game to go either way on their own without the other features.

For instance, the skill animations in Final Fantasy tactics are real time, but the inherent gameplay is turn based (if that makes sense).

I think the answer is all in how much control you have on the timeline. If you have complete control of part of the timeline, such as with Tactical RPGs, I think focusing on that little detail is what makes a game TB or RT.

Now maybe this'll be a better point to restate my original question. If a game under these circumstances has a lot of TB but a little RT (within the gameplay!), would it still be considered RT?

[Ytaker]

Waves can be real time. If it waits for you to finish one wave before sending a new one, then it's turn based, and unrealistic, as an enemy wouldn't give you time to recover, but more convenient for a casual player. Instant build towers are less realistic and in the 'one action per turn' mindset. Having to power up attacks like sword swings, as in final fantasy, is unrealistic and turn based but necessary for the mechanics of the game.

[aguydude]

There are two ways one could design a tower defense game such that I would consider it turn-based:
1) Enemies move one step per turn. After each such turn, the game is paused and the player may do whatever they wish. I have never seen a tower defense game that fulfilled this definition of turn-based. Making one that did so and was fun is probably not so easy...but I'd love to see someone do it right.
2) The player cannot place towers except in between waves. Waves are not interactive. I don't recall ever having seen this, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had been done before. The advantage of this design is that the game never is influenced by player reflexes.


As for making the game pause between waves, I wouldn't consider the decision to do or not do this to be especially important unless you either make there be NO time between waves and/or make tower building and tower upgrading take time. While I don't have anything against this design, as a touch-pad user I appreciate it when such designs allow the player to interact with their towers (building/upgrading) even when the game is paused. I've seen a good number of tower defense games where there is no delay between waves. If you plan to make there be a clear delineation between waves, I'd suggest making it optional whether the game pauses between waves.

[ybom]

Originally Posted by aguydude

There are two ways one could design a tower defense game such that I would consider it turn-based:
1) Enemies move one step per turn. After each such turn, the game is paused and the player may do whatever they wish. I have never seen a tower defense game that fulfilled this definition of turn-based. Making one that did so and was fun is probably not so easy...but I'd love to see someone do it right.

I think a step in this direction would be a Matrix camera speed option that lets you focus attacks with weapons where you can tell the AI is going to break down (as with onslaught's lasers), but I think if you were going to go this far, you would just include more options on each tower. Maybe more options and that special speed could both be added.

From there, let's say you did the above two options in a sequel due to fan comments. In a third release you could maybe add a management mode that lets you dictate orders on a time increment by increment basis, giving you full "turn based" control. Fantasy TD anyone? Lol.

2) The player cannot place towers except in between waves. Waves are not interactive. I don't recall ever having seen this, but I wouldn't be surprised if it had been done before. The advantage of this design is that the game never is influenced by player reflexes.

I think there's a couple of maze TD games where you can't sell during waves, to combat juggling. I think the Gem TD method is better where the game mechanic limits you to the number of "towers" you place between waves. I don't consider this to be fully turn based like your suggestion in #1, but more of "traditional" turn based, such as with tactical RPGs like FFT that still have full animation but the game mechanics are limited to turn based actions.

As for making the game pause between waves, I wouldn't consider the decision to do or not do this to be especially important unless you either make there be NO time between waves and/or make tower building and tower upgrading take time. While I don't have anything against this design, as a touch-pad user I appreciate it when such designs allow the player to interact with their towers (building/upgrading) even when the game is paused. I've seen a good number of tower defense games where there is no delay between waves. If you plan to make there be a clear delineation between waves, I'd suggest making it optional whether the game pauses between waves.

I'm a firm believer in including all or only one play style (and rereleases on other platforms and eventual consolidation, maybe). Let fans, or eventual heirs, release compatible versions if it comes to that.